Spring 2006

Learning and leading: a conversation with two Holy Cross presidents

by Elizabeth Station

Both Carol Ann Mooney '72 and Rev. John Jenkins, CSC, grew up in Catholic families. Both earned graduate degrees, taught, and served as administrators at the University of Notre Dame. In 2004 and 2005, they became the presidents of their respective undergraduate alma maters. Recently, Father Jenkins crossed the street for a conversation with his former colleague. Edited excerpts from that interview follow.

Courier: The two of you share very similar
professional tracks. What would you say you have
in common as people?

Mooney: I think there are a couple of obvious commonalities–love of learning and deep faith. I think we both have strong family ties. I doubt that he likes roller coasters as much as I do but I'm not sure (laughter).

Jenkins: Probably not. I would say this may be more an aspiration on my part, but Carol is a person who doesn't come into a room and try to dominate it. I don't think that's her style. I think she understands situations and tries to work with them. I think that's my style, a little bit.

Courier: Back when you were in college, did you ever imagine that you'd reach the presidency of these two institutions? If you'd had a crystal ball and seen your future, how would you have reacted?

Mooney: Both with terror and curiosity that such a thing could have happened! There's no way it ever crossed my mind, even very far into my career. A lot of it has to do with personality. The biggest decision for me in taking on this job was how public your face and your life become and that was pretty scary for me (laughter). I was a small kid from a small town, and I never would have thought that my life would take the path it has. But life happens–and this is going to sound more egotistical than I mean it–and God calls. I do believe I'm in the right place at the right time now, because I really love Saint Mary's, what it stands for, and what it does for women. So I'm absolutely thrilled to be here but I never plotted or planned it.

Courier: Father Jenkins, did you aspire to the presidency of Notre Dame?

Jenkins: I'm like Carol; it never even remotely entered my mind as a possibility.

Courier: What did you imagine yourself doing?

Jenkins: Well, I love philosophy and I love being a college professor. That did enter my mind.

Courier: How did you and your colleagues react when you heard that Carol was leaving you for Saint Mary's?

Jenkins: We were obviously disappointed to lose her but I think she's the very best person for the job. It was the right move for Saint Mary's; there's no doubt. One thing I have learned being a president is that you have to work with students, faculty, alumni, benefactors, the press, athletics, and just a thousand issues. So it requires a person who can go into a lot of different spheres. And when Carol was in the Provost's Office [at Notre Dame] that was her job. She had academic credibility as well as the ability to deal with thorny issues.

Courier: Do you think people understood her desire to lead a women's college?

Jenkins: Absolutely. I think Carol said that this was a special challenge for her and a special vocation.

Courier: What makes a Holy Cross education distinctive for each of you?

Mooney: I think a focus on personal formation is certainly characteristic of Holy Cross. Second, I think Holy Cross seeks not just to gain the salvation of people within these institutions but also of others, and mostly through serving them. Also, Holy Cross educations are characterized by personal attention to students, treating them individually as children of God.

Jenkins: The idea of Moreau in founding Holy Cross was this image of family–priests, brothers, and sisters–that was to define relationships. I think that's what Carol is talking about. Education isn't a commodity that you give people and our students aren't clients. There is a sense of family, a sense of belonging.

Courier: Father Jenkins, what are your memories of Saint Mary's from your days as an undergraduate in the 1970s?

Jenkins: I took French here with a Holy Cross Sister. I got on the bus at eight in the morning and came over to classes and knew a number of people here. I was in the first class that had women all the way through at Notre Dame, but there weren't many of them. So there were women at both places, but my main memory is really of those 8 a.m. French classes (laughter).

Courier: What do you see as the role of women's colleges in today's world?

Jenkins: I think that they provide a space for women to flourish in an environment where women take leadership roles. I don't know if this is true-I know that in the seventies this was true-of the women in Congress, a disproportionate number of them had gone to women's colleges.

Mooney: We have four [alumnae in Congress].

Jenkins: Which is quite remarkable. I don't know of this small of a place that has four people in Congress. And that's what I mean: I think women need to have a place where they understand what it means to take on leadership and they're comfortable taking on leadership and there isn't this sort of male-female thing to complicate that.
Courier: Dr. Mooney, last fall in an address to the faculty you said it was time for Saint Mary's to be "responsibly daring." What did you mean?

Mooney: I think we have to exhibit confidence about who we are, and what our role is and build on it in ways that are totally unapologetic. We have become more self-conscious about being a women's college because, of course, there are fewer than there used to be. We're becoming better at talking about being a women's college, but not quite as good at talking about being a Catholic women's college. We must be confident in the role we fill and be ready to build on it.

Courier: Father Jenkins, do you have your own summation of what you'd like Notre Dame to be or accomplish during your presidency?

Jenkins: No, I'm not as articulate as Carol (laughter). I'd like us to dream big-I think that has always been true of Notre Dame and Saint Mary's. They got their start as very tiny places, and places that had very low prospects for success. But they have a history of people dreaming big and not accepting an outcome of mediocrity or insignificance. Also, we should not be afraid to be different in some respects - not just for difference's sake - but different in a way that really adds a distinctive contribution to education.

Courier: Dr. Mooney recently said that "In academia there is always tension between the desire for a strong leader and the desire for a leader who will do only what the community wants." How has this tension played out in each of your presidencies so far?

Mooney: Well, in my first year it really played out in the budget, because we had to make some budget cuts and if you wait for consensus on that, you'll never get it. It was not what I hoped to spend my first year doing, but it certainly was one of those moments where one had to listen to the community. We made some changes based on what we heard but in the end, I just had to make some decisions and say, 'OK, this is what we're going to do.'

Jenkins: I think the issue is an issue of leadership generally. And leadership is an art-there's no rulebook for it. So you always have tensions between listening to and accommodating various voices in the community and saying, 'This is the direction we're going to go.' And you can err in both ways. You can err on the side of going it alone and not listening to people; you can err on the side of trying to spend too much time seeking consensus. There isn't a simple guideline for this. You have to listen, but you have to lead.

Courier: Is there anything else you would like to add?

Mooney: What a happy outcome that John is the president across the street-and that we had the privilege of working together in the past and get to do so in these new roles. I couldn't be happier that he's my colleague in the great work of continuing Holy Cross education.

Jenkins: I would say the same about Carol. I think Saint Mary's is very fortunate to have her leadership. To have a place like Saint Mary's, dedicated to women and Catholic, is really a special mission. And to have Carol- who is such an accomplished person professionally and also a Catholic person -lead it is not just fortuitous but providential. I'm glad Carol's here, and I look forward to working together on projects to move these great institutions forward.

Elizabeth Station is a senior writer in marketing communications.